Curse

Mesmerman · Apr 14, 2007, 08:10 AM // 08:10

First of all, don't post saying: It's not a problem.
It is, and anyone who thinks otherwise is incorrect, plain and simple.

The state in which Soul Reaping has been lately is "mangled" at best. Reduction to 5 second delay gain brings about a few problems.

*Inconsistency. All professions have the ability to be consistent with energy management, should they need it. More or less, they are in complete control of their own energy. Necromancers have never quite been in control of their own management, relying on the team's ability to kill for energy dependence. That issue wasn't an issue before, because of the lack of restriction on SR. Now that it's limited to 5 seconds, a variety of problems arise:
1) A team can kill a majority of the enemies in the area at a speed quicker than the soul reaping can manage to take advantage of. With some builds, this isn't necessarily an issue, as the enemies are dead, leaving the necro with little to do with any energy they would have had. On the other hand, this is a HUGE problem with minion masters, as they need to stay in one area to get their minions up, and really DEPEND on energy gain after every death. Lowering skill costs isn't the answer, and Anet should know that. It will only help to start sharing the Necromancer's most important skills with other professions, which will only detract from the quality of what a necromancer is.

-Teams will not simply "kill slower" to make up for these problems.

2) Spirits. They still give half energy upon death. I can not say how many times I've been playing [pve] and been trying to cast to eliminate enemies, waiting 5 seconds between gain, and seeing soul reaping go off from some Quickening Z or other spirits. So then another 5 seconds is needed for gain, and I'm shorted 50% energy gain, which is already unpredictably inconsistent, and inadequate.

-Protip for Anet: SR exploitation is still manageable in HA.

3) PvP. Soul Reaping was "apparently" an issue first in PvP arenas, and yet the problem hasn't even been close to being solved. Spirit machines still work.
Not to mention a greater majority of pvp necromancer play is devoted to various forms of B-Spike, which are unaffected by the "inconsistency" noted in my first point, since the necromancers are in complete control of their energy gain (see: spiking). So you've barely touched PvP, and managed to trash PvE.
Again.
Nice job.

My opinion personally is to simply revert SR and eliminate spirit gain.
Other solutions (useless/stupid/broken, but I'll still point them out)
1) Energy gain upon creature created, or creature resurrected.
2) Double Soul Reaping. (teehee!)
3) Anet devs punch selves in face.

Anyone feeling supportive of this argument I urge for a /sign. Anet does actually read forums, and the only way to be heard is to keep pushing.

Anyone thinking otherwise, in opposition to the argument, or just in opposition to the re-posting of the subject is more than likely inexperienced and/or biased, but I will make an attempt (at the very least) to read your posts, and even less of an attempt to consider them.

Kali Magdalene · Apr 14, 2007, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

First of all, don't post saying: It's not a problem.
It is, and anyone who thinks otherwise is incorrect, plain and simple.

...

Anyone thinking otherwise, in opposition to the argument, or just in opposition to the re-posting of the subject is more than likely inexperienced and/or biased, but I will make an attempt (at the very least) to read your posts, and even less of an attempt to consider them.

Biased? Incorrect? Inexperienced? I do not think those words mean what you think they mean.

stueyman2099 · Apr 14, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

From the perspective of a hardcore PvPer;
havn't seen soul reaping abuse since the nerf in HA. I would say that people stopped running it, or just run it in hours I don't play.

Also, most of the necro's I run into are all about reapers mark, 4 curse hexes, a glyph, open slot, and a res sig. sure it has high SR, but thats more for reapers than anything else.

Mesmerman · Apr 14, 2007, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Magdalene

Biased? Incorrect? Inexperienced? I do not think those words mean what you think they mean.

Then you don't know what they mean.
Allow me to help:

:: Bias ::
-A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense for having a preference to one particular point of view or ideological perspective.

:: Incorrect ::
- not correct as to fact; inaccurate; wrong: an incorrect statement.
- not correct in form, use, or manner.

:: Inexperienced ::
- not experienced; lacking knowledge, skill, or wisdom gained from experience.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 14, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

3) PvP. Soul Reaping was "apparently" an issue first in PvP arenas, and yet the problem hasn't even been close to being solved. Spirit machines still work.
Not to mention a greater majority of pvp necromancer play is devoted to various forms of B-Spike, which are unaffected by the "inconsistency" noted in my first point, since the necromancers are in complete control of their energy gain (see: spiking). So you've barely touched PvP, and managed to trash PvE.
Again.
Nice job.

No.

The biggest problem was a rediculous amount of pressure from necromancers pumping out skills from their secondary with unlimited energy. Sure, they used some primary necro hexes but that was not the main issue.
Spirit Spam machines still work, to an extend. What matters is that they put a cap on the energy gain, that previously didn't have a cap. Scaling energy gain without a cap is broken.
Sure, they could've done something else. They could've made spirits not affect soul reaping, but that would've been a bandaid. They could've turned soul reaping into energy regeneration, which would've worked, but this is the same thing: It puts a cap on the energy gain you can get. That's what matters here, and that's why I'm in favor of this change.

P.S. good luck trying to have a 'real' argument about the soul reaping change.

Avarre · Apr 14, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

First of all, don't post saying: It's not a problem.
It is, and anyone who thinks otherwise is incorrect, plain and simple.

...

Quote:

*Inconsistency. All professions have the ability to be consistent with energy management, should they need it. More or less, they are in complete control of their own energy. Necromancers have never quite been in control of their own management, relying on the team's ability to kill for energy dependence. That issue wasn't an issue before, because of the lack of restriction on SR.

All other professions have to use SKILLS to be consistant with energy management, or simply limit their skill usage to match their natural return.

Quote:

Now that it's limited to 5 seconds, a variety of problems arise:
1) A team can kill a majority of the enemies in the area at a speed quicker than the soul reaping can manage to take advantage of. With some builds, this isn't necessarily an issue, as the enemies are dead, leaving the necro with little to do with any energy they would have had. On the other hand, this is a HUGE problem with minion masters, as they need to stay in one area to get their minions up, and really DEPEND on energy gain after every death. Lowering skill costs isn't the answer, and Anet should know that. It will only help to start sharing the Necromancer's most important skills with other professions, which will only detract from the quality of what a necromancer is.

So with all the monsters dead quickly, stopping to regenerate energy like every other class is out of the question? I'm sorry four pips is less than the 11~ relative pips SR could provide total, but welcome to Guild Wars - where you have to tweak and balance a build rather than just sticking 8 attacks on a bar and expecting to win.

Quote:

2) Spirits. They still give half energy upon death. I can not say how many times I've been playing [pve] and been trying to cast to eliminate enemies, waiting 5 seconds between gain, and seeing soul reaping go off from some Quickening Z or other spirits. So then another 5 seconds is needed for gain, and I'm shorted 50% energy gain, which is already unpredictably inconsistent, and inadequate.

If you are timing kills to try and get energy returns because you depend on that energy, you have problems that are not related to Soul Reaping. You are not shorted 50%. You are still +% from every other class in the game without expending skill slots, and you still have the ability to drop regen for +max energy as you can power off of SR to an extent. You can also utilize your skill slots and secondary class to supply you with more energy - which is what most players from other caster classes have done for almost two years.

Quote:

Not to mention a greater majority of pvp necromancer play is devoted to various forms of B-Spike, which are unaffected by the "inconsistency" noted in my first point, since the necromancers are in complete control of their energy gain (see: spiking). So you've barely touched PvP, and managed to trash PvE.

You do realize that Icy Veins/SB spike gets ridiculous energy from spirit spam or minion spawns, and not so much from deaths in comparison (not to mention IV itself took a nerf, leaving most necroes in Hexway builds)? The number of spirit-abuse teams have significantly been reduced, and decent PvE'ers have barely been affected. I would suggest you back up your statements better.

Quote:

My opinion personally is to simply revert SR and eliminate spirit gain.
Other solutions (useless/stupid/broken, but I'll still point them out)
1) Energy gain upon creature created, or creature resurrected.
2) Double Soul Reaping. (teehee!)
3) Anet devs punch selves in face.

...

Quote:

Anyone thinking otherwise, in opposition to the argument, or just in opposition to the re-posting of the subject is more than likely inexperienced and/or biased, but I will make an attempt (at the very least) to read your posts, and even less of an attempt to consider them.

I will say this once. I am better than you are.

Yichi · Apr 14, 2007, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

First of all, don't post saying: It's not a problem.
It is, and anyone who thinks otherwise is incorrect, plain and simple.

its also a problem when 90000000000000x posts like this appear when theres an entire thread debating this issue...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

The state in which Soul Reaping has been lately is "mangled" at best. Reduction to 5 second delay gain brings about a few problems.

The only problems it brings are to the people who want to just stand there mindlessly and spam high energy skills without thinking about their skillbar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

*Inconsistency. All professions have the ability to be consistent with energy management, should they need it. More or less, they are in complete control of their own energy. Necromancers have never quite been in control of their own management, relying on the team's ability to kill for energy dependence. That issue wasn't an issue before, because of the lack of restriction on SR. Now that it's limited to 5 seconds, a variety of problems arise:

So since a necro was put on par with all the other classes and now requires the player to think instead of just mash buttons is a bad thing? If every other class/player has to be aware of their energymanagement, why should one person be non affected by it? and believe me, there were plenty of morons out there who couldnt play a necro build worth a shit to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

1) A team can kill a majority of the enemies in the area at a speed quicker than the soul reaping can manage to take advantage of. With some builds, this isn't necessarily an issue, as the enemies are dead, leaving the necro with little to do with any energy they would have had. On the other hand, this is a HUGE problem with minion masters, as they need to stay in one area to get their minions up, and really DEPEND on energy gain after every death. Lowering skill costs isn't the answer, and Anet should know that. It will only help to start sharing the Necromancer's most important skills with other professions, which will only detract from the quality of what a necromancer is.

-Teams will not simply "kill slower" to make up for these problems.

ok honestly, the party isnt going to wipe an entire mob in under 5 seconds unless youre fighting a bunch of lvl 3 mobs, in which case, wtf are you even doing there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

2) Spirits. They still give half energy upon death. I can not say how many times I've been playing [pve] and been trying to cast to eliminate enemies, waiting 5 seconds between gain, and seeing soul reaping go off from some Quickening Z or other spirits. So then another 5 seconds is needed for gain, and I'm shorted 50% energy gain, which is already unpredictably inconsistent, and inadequate.

-Protip for Anet: SR exploitation is still manageable in HA.

what the blue hell do you even need QZ for in pve? the only way i can see you needing any spirits around in pve is for a b/p run in tombs in which case, too much shit is dying anyway to really tell which is going off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

3) PvP. Soul Reaping was "apparently" an issue first in PvP arenas, and yet the problem hasn't even been close to being solved. Spirit machines still work.
Not to mention a greater majority of pvp necromancer play is devoted to various forms of B-Spike, which are unaffected by the "inconsistency" noted in my first point, since the necromancers are in complete control of their energy gain (see: spiking). So you've barely touched PvP, and managed to trash PvE.
Again.
Nice job.

Ok, have u even participated in pvp recently? the all necro teams have been drastically cut, and there is no all hex teams anymore in gvg play. Spiritway as all but disappeared in any form of highlevel pvp, besides, theres a few other builds out there that are much much much more powerful now than spiritway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

My opinion personally is to simply revert SR and eliminate spirit gain.
Other solutions (useless/stupid/broken, but I'll still point them out)
1) Energy gain upon creature created, or creature resurrected.
2) Double Soul Reaping. (teehee!)
3) Anet devs punch selves in face.

Anyone feeling supportive of this argument I urge for a /sign. Anet does actually read forums, and the only way to be heard is to keep pushing.

Anyone thinking otherwise, in opposition to the argument, or just in opposition to the re-posting of the subject is more than likely inexperienced and/or biased, but I will make an attempt (at the very least) to read your posts, and even less of an attempt to consider them.

ok this is where you went from having a decent post, to being a complete moron again. 1) if u think SR was ever broken when shit dies, u know how much more broken shit would become if you got energy from creating things? wow i mean honestly, wtf were u smoking thinking of that. 2) Double soul reaping will break shit even more, because now you get normal energy from spirits and 2x the energy for carrying a lvl 1 bone minions that die to a fart in the wind. yeah way to balance this one buddy... 3) anet devs punching themselves in the face wont solve the problems of people being terrible at pve and having to have somethign so overpowered to justify them even playing, that you seriously need to rethink what you call fun, because mass buttonspamming to me = tedious and boring as shit. good thing im not a korean farmer huh?

i will not /sign this or anything to reverse the nerf, if not than it needs to be nerfed more. You say that you want to not repost the same shit that has always been posted before, yet here we are reading this bullshit and completely failing at not only understanding, but life also. please take 2 dollars, buy a clue, and learn to play. this game isnt hard for any class as long as you pull your head out of your ass and use your head. You know, thats that lump thats 3 feet above your ass!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

Anyone thinking otherwise, in opposition to the argument, or just in opposition to the re-posting of the subject is more than likely inexperienced and/or biased, but I will make an attempt (at the very least) to read your posts, and even less of an attempt to consider them.

Seriously, WHO R YOU?????!!!

-Yichi-

Mesmerman · Apr 14, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

No.

The biggest problem was a rediculous amount of pressure from necromancers pumping out skills from their secondary with unlimited energy. Sure, they used some primary necro hexes but that was not the main issue.
Spirit Spam machines still work, to an extend. What matters is that they put a cap on the energy gain, that previously didn't have a cap. Scaling energy gain without a cap is broken.
Sure, they could've done something else. They could've made spirits not affect soul reaping, but that would've been a bandaid. They could've turned soul reaping into energy regeneration, which would've worked, but this is the same thing: It puts a cap on the energy gain you can get. That's what matters here, and that's why I'm in favor of this change.

P.S. good luck trying to have a 'real' argument about the soul reaping change.

You're kinda arguing for me while arguing against me, I hope you know.

Quote:

unlimited energy

Wrong. Limited to their efficiency.

Quote:

What matters is that they put a cap on the energy gain, that previously didn't have a cap.

More like a pet frog. They put a cap on it and forgot to poke holes.

Quote:

They could've made spirits not affect soul reaping, but that would've been a bandaid.

No, that would have eliminated the problem. PvE only needs to be nerfed when there's something negatively effecting the economy (see: farming).
Any farming done by necros is virtually unaffected by this. Not to mention necro farming is one of the less-used types.

Quote:

but that would've been a bandaid.

And instead of a bandaid they've now poured festering puddles of bacterium colonies into the wound.

Quote:

It puts a cap on the energy gain you can get. That's what matters here, and that's why I'm in favor of this change.

Energy gain does not need to be capped. Your argument sounds silly. Energy gain needs to be slowed, perhaps, but never capped. I couldn't imagine an ele who only got a set number of uses out of his/her attunement while it was in effect, or an assassin that can only get critical damage energy gain up to a point. Energy management is based on efficiency. In your dream world there is an apparent flow of extra energy that is only limited by a maximum, when in fact there are much more complicated matters at hand.

I think you need to seriously relook my comment about "inexperience" over again.

Quote:

P.S. good luck trying to have a 'real' argument about the soul reaping change.

P.S. Thanx.

Lady Ana Stacia · Apr 14, 2007, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Everyone else has already said it, but I can honestly say personally I don't see the problem with the new way soul reaping effects an MM. Still works just takes a little more attention to what your doing which is what every other class out there has to do.

Black Strobe · Apr 14, 2007, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

Spirit machines still work.

Sure. That was one of the intentions and a reason why they changed SR like they did. Spirits still trigger SR, that's a great thing! Why should they destroy whole builds? They never did that before (except Spiritspam maybe). What you don't grasp is: The build is now balanced. It still works, but has it's limits.

Anet is not always 100% correct or hits the nails on it's head. In this case tough, they did an awesome job!

Shmanka · Apr 14, 2007, 08:44 AM // 08:44

I complained, about this earlier. I don't mind it in PvP but for PvE your arguments are correct. The Holy Trinity is just enchanced.

Mesmerman · Apr 14, 2007, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

its also a problem when 90000000000000x posts like this appear when theres an entire thread debating this issue...

You are one of those "quitting" style people, aren't you?

Quote:

The only problems it brings are to the people who want to just stand there mindlessly and spam high energy skills without thinking about their skillbar.

Wrong already. We [necromancers] simply want the ability to cast them. Spamming would be nice, admittedly.

Quote:

So since a necro was put on par with all the other classes and now requires the player to think instead of just mash buttons is a bad thing?

And continuing down your path or moronic thought. You've obviously not played Necro enough. Certainly it wouldn't be a bad thing, were that the actual state of things.

Quote:

If every other class/player has to be aware of their energy management, why should one person be non affected by it?

They shouldn't... who argued that?

Quote:

and believe me, there were plenty of morons out there who couldnt play a necro build worth a shit to begin with.

If this is true, then you've already discredited your statement about spamming and mindless play.

Quote:

ok honestly, the party isnt going to wipe an entire mob in under 5 seconds unless youre fighting a bunch of lvl 3 mobs, in which case, wtf are you even doing there?

I play with good teams.

Quote:

what the blue hell do you even need QZ for in pve? the only way i can see you needing any spirits around in pve is for a b/p run in tombs in which case, too much shit is dying anyway to really tell which is going off.

I was speaking about both enemy spirits AND team spirits, but mostly enemy spirits. I don't know where you play, but plenty of groups use spirits in GW pve. My spirits are generally not a problem, as I have them under my own control. But AoE is a real killer on those level 8 ghosts, ya know?

Quote:

Ok, have u even participated in pvp recently? the all necro teams have been drastically cut, and there is no all hex teams anymore in gvg play. Spiritway as all but disappeared in any form of highlevel pvp, besides, theres a few other builds out there that are much much much more powerful now than spiritway.

It's been about a week. The good players have already figured it out, the newbs wont be long from having rebuilt a lot of their necro-oriented teams.

Quote:

ok this is where you went from having a decent post, to being a complete moron again.

It's kinda off topic, but this statement contradicts itself.

Quote:

1) if u think SR was ever broken when shit dies, u know how much more broken shit would become if you got energy from creating things? wow i mean honestly, wtf were u smoking thinking of that. 2) Double soul reaping will break shit even more, because now you get normal energy from spirits and 2x the energy for carrying a lvl 1 bone minions that die to a fart in the wind. yeah way to balance this one buddy... 3) anet devs punching themselves in the face wont solve the problems of people being terrible at pve and having to have somethign so overpowered to justify them even playing, that you seriously need to rethink what you call fun, because mass buttonspamming to me = tedious and boring as shit. good thing im not a korean farmer huh?

Did you not get how seriously un-serious I was being there? Do I have to spell it out?

Quote:

i will not /sign this or anything to reverse the nerf, if not than it needs to be nerfed more. You say that you want to not repost the same shit that has always been posted before, yet here we are reading this bullshit and completely failing at not only understanding, but life also. please take 2 dollars, buy a clue, and learn to play. this game isnt hard for any class as long as you pull your head out of your ass and use your head. You know, thats that lump thats 3 feet above your ass!

You don't need to get angry about things you don't fully comprehend. I'm certain if you ask nicely, your mother will make you a nice cold glass of chocolate milk, which will do some good for that temper of yours.
Off you go now.

ss1986v2 · Apr 14, 2007, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

Wrong already. We [necromancers] simply want the ability to cast them. Spamming would be nice, admittedly.

whats stopping you from casting them? last i check, no necro spell was greater that your initial energy pool.

:::Q::: · Apr 14, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Wow... look out for the dude in tights... people are getting

Edit:

Quote:

whats stopping you from casting them? last i check, no necro spell was greater that your initial energy pool.

lol. Cute. I don't know which is funnier, the sarcastic exaggeration of Mesmerman, or your sarcastic exaggeration of his sarcastic exaggeration. xD

Yichi · Apr 14, 2007, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

You are one of those "quitting" style people, aren't you?

QQ... but honestly if i was a quitter, id have stopped at your first 837540693876083740687340678 posts in the soul reaping thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

Wrong already. We [necromancers] simply want the ability to cast them. Spamming would be nice, admittedly.

You have the ability to cast them, aparently you just dont have the smarts behind your logic for wanting to cast them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

And continuing down your path or moronic thought. You've obviously not played Necro enough. Certainly it wouldn't be a bad thing, were that the actual state of things.

Umm... yeah ive never used a pve or a pvp necro... i aparently know nothing about how this game works. so please tell me all mighty one, when was the last time i ever ran across you in any form of competitive event for you to even have half a clue as to what the hell i even am tryign to beat into people like you??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

They shouldn't... who argued that?

Well by you suggesting some of the dumb shit you have suggested and some of your points of arguments, i would say you fall into this class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

If this is true, then you've already discredited your statement about spamming and mindless play.

no i told the truth. there are a lot of people that i could give a skillbar too, ask them to run it, show them how it works, and they still would NEVER get the point behind it. Then there are the people that can run a build, as long as its so mindless it only requires this combo... 1,2,3,4,5, repeat. honestly i could train a chimp to do this with more effectiveness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

I play with good teams.

bbbbbwwwwwaaaaahhhhhhhhhhaaaaaahhhhhhhaaaaaa

*excuse me*

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrooooooooooofffffffffffllllllllll

honestly name these so called good teams. i didnt know there was such a standard in pve.... can i tag along and learn how to doa farm?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

I was speaking about both enemy spirits AND team spirits, but mostly enemy spirits. I don't know where you play, but plenty of groups use spirits in GW pve. My spirits are generally not a problem, as I have them under my own control. But AoE is a real killer on those level 8 ghosts, ya know?

again refer to previous reply as to the reasoning why this statement was retarted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

It's been about a week. The good players have already figured it out, the newbs wont be long from having rebuilt a lot of their necro-oriented teams.

no the good players never played the brokenness of the SR nerf, they just killed the shit and moved on. The only time it was an issue was when the Tournament was decided by it because 3/4 of the teams ran the same from of bullshit. thats why the problem was being addressed and delt with in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

It's kinda off topic, but this statement contradicts itself.

No, not really. you had decent thoughts, you just didnt word them properly and made yourself out to be an asshat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

Did you not get how seriously un-serious I was being there? Do I have to spell it out?

wow, then youve fail at everything then huh? /wrists imo as theres no lower point in life u can reach. (see just how unfunny things get when people actually think youre trying to make a suggestion? now learn to think before you type plz.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmerman

You don't need to get angry about things you don't fully comprehend. I'm certain if you ask nicely, your mother will make you a nice cold glass of chocolate milk, which will do some good for that temper of yours.
Off you go now.

Again, WHO R YOU???? and while youre up, get me a beer please

daky · Apr 14, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

First I thought this was a horrible change. But after playing I still never run out of energy. Is it a problem NO does it need fixing NO. This change only effects the inexperienced, and those unwilling to except change.

Avarre · Apr 14, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Ok, this thread is getting repetitive.

I believe this sums it up. Have a nice day.